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	<title>Comments on: U.S. Navy to require &#8220;open GIS&#8221;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/</link>
	<description>Geospatial Technology, Web Mapping and Spatial Services</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8690</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:27:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8690</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would disagree that OGC services are slow, as they are not.

What is &quot;slow&quot; is the implementation of their use by most applications. Instead of creating image tile pyramids on the client side, or grabbing vectors by tile areas, most applications repeatedly ask for the same data over and over. Of course that implementation is slow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would disagree that OGC services are slow, as they are not.</p>
<p>What is &#8220;slow&#8221; is the implementation of their use by most applications. Instead of creating image tile pyramids on the client side, or grabbing vectors by tile areas, most applications repeatedly ask for the same data over and over. Of course that implementation is slow.</p>
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		<title>By: Jarlath</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8689</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jarlath]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 07:40:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8689</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The CAC cards may be an issue for facilities management, but most work is done on secure networks with the data coming from NGA.  NGA has primarily invested in Google Earth Enterprise right now, which is a good thing as most of the OGC services are painfully slow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The CAC cards may be an issue for facilities management, but most work is done on secure networks with the data coming from NGA.  NGA has primarily invested in Google Earth Enterprise right now, which is a good thing as most of the OGC services are painfully slow.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 01:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[9.3 update...

I&#039;m curious if the Navy uses CAC cards and requires client certificates for all web services like the USAF. If they do, they can&#039;t use ESRI&#039;s OGC services with it. Not only does 9.3 not allow you to select &quot;use IE settings&quot; to get past a base firewall, it still does not support client certificates making it totally useless. Something ESRI doesn&#039;t seem interesting in fixing, since a request to do so has been in for over a year.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>9.3 update&#8230;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m curious if the Navy uses CAC cards and requires client certificates for all web services like the USAF. If they do, they can&#8217;t use ESRI&#8217;s OGC services with it. Not only does 9.3 not allow you to select &#8220;use IE settings&#8221; to get past a base firewall, it still does not support client certificates making it totally useless. Something ESRI doesn&#8217;t seem interesting in fixing, since a request to do so has been in for over a year.</p>
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		<title>By: bender</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8687</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[bender]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Mar 2008 10:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8687</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There is no OGC standard that will last for the next 5 years. I don&#039;t see any future technology coming up from this organization. Most of it is not even useful in real world. WMS and CSW is popular, OK, but in mapping technology KML is more popular. WFS isn&#039;t feasible for anything but your own project. GML is a mindbloat from the naughty professor. WCS is useless crap. Geoprocessing service spec is note even standardizes and will be not usable in practice. Open standards means SOAP services. Now and in the future, Amen.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is no OGC standard that will last for the next 5 years. I don&#8217;t see any future technology coming up from this organization. Most of it is not even useful in real world. WMS and CSW is popular, OK, but in mapping technology KML is more popular. WFS isn&#8217;t feasible for anything but your own project. GML is a mindbloat from the naughty professor. WCS is useless crap. Geoprocessing service spec is note even standardizes and will be not usable in practice. Open standards means SOAP services. Now and in the future, Amen.</p>
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		<title>By: JOD</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JOD]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 20:16:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Folks still need to understand that ArcGIS is still only one of the geospatial software packages out there, and when you move down to trigger puller level its not even in use (too cumbersome when there are no GIS specialists available).  Discussions of things like WMS and MapServer are irrelevant until the new joint communications architecture comes online (2020?).  When you think of deployed units think of the equivalent of a dial-up modem.  What also makes the Navy polices somewhat irrelevant is that CENTCOM is fighting all of the wars right now, thus it&#039;s the policies of the combatant commands that will realy dictate where things head.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Folks still need to understand that ArcGIS is still only one of the geospatial software packages out there, and when you move down to trigger puller level its not even in use (too cumbersome when there are no GIS specialists available).  Discussions of things like WMS and MapServer are irrelevant until the new joint communications architecture comes online (2020?).  When you think of deployed units think of the equivalent of a dial-up modem.  What also makes the Navy polices somewhat irrelevant is that CENTCOM is fighting all of the wars right now, thus it&#8217;s the policies of the combatant commands that will realy dictate where things head.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Maddle</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8685</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Maddle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 15:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8685</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First thing: I didn&#039;t say or mean to imply that the Navy was going to just dump all their ESRI software and turn to alternatives.  However, when you talk about an &quot;Open Network Architecture&quot;, &quot;Open Standards&quot;, and a desire to cut costs (quote below), I have to interpret that as a desire to break with some of the traditional technologies and incorporate newer ones.  

&lt;blockquote&gt;
â€œWe canâ€™t accept the increasing costs of maintaining our present-day capabilities,â€ Edwards said. â€œIn the civilian marketplace, itâ€™s just the opposite. Some private-sector concerns are cutting their costs by 90 percent while expanding their performance.â€ 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

We will all interpret that differently, but one thing it clearly indicates is a tremendously strong focus on cutting costs.   Of course, interoperability and eliminating stovepipes (which often mean that redundant data is being stored and served) is part of cutting costs.  However, I can&#039;t believe that the Admiral&#039;s statements don&#039;t also indicate a belief that there are products out that perform better at a much lower cost than what the Navy is using now.  

Again, I&#039;m not saying the Navy is going to replace all of it&#039;s ESRI products tomorrow.  In the end, no one knows to what degree, or what pace, they will incorporate Open Source or lower-cost alternatives.  However, the Admiral&#039;s statements, along with the increasing viability of Open Source tools (USGS, for example, has an aerial imagery WMS feed that (I think) is MapServer based) indicate to me that he is looking to replace some expensive pieces of the puzzle with less expensive pieces.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First thing: I didn&#8217;t say or mean to imply that the Navy was going to just dump all their ESRI software and turn to alternatives.  However, when you talk about an &#8220;Open Network Architecture&#8221;, &#8220;Open Standards&#8221;, and a desire to cut costs (quote below), I have to interpret that as a desire to break with some of the traditional technologies and incorporate newer ones.  </p>
<blockquote><p>
â€œWe canâ€™t accept the increasing costs of maintaining our present-day capabilities,â€ Edwards said. â€œIn the civilian marketplace, itâ€™s just the opposite. Some private-sector concerns are cutting their costs by 90 percent while expanding their performance.â€
</p></blockquote>
<p>We will all interpret that differently, but one thing it clearly indicates is a tremendously strong focus on cutting costs.   Of course, interoperability and eliminating stovepipes (which often mean that redundant data is being stored and served) is part of cutting costs.  However, I can&#8217;t believe that the Admiral&#8217;s statements don&#8217;t also indicate a belief that there are products out that perform better at a much lower cost than what the Navy is using now.  </p>
<p>Again, I&#8217;m not saying the Navy is going to replace all of it&#8217;s ESRI products tomorrow.  In the end, no one knows to what degree, or what pace, they will incorporate Open Source or lower-cost alternatives.  However, the Admiral&#8217;s statements, along with the increasing viability of Open Source tools (USGS, for example, has an aerial imagery WMS feed that (I think) is MapServer based) indicate to me that he is looking to replace some expensive pieces of the puzzle with less expensive pieces.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 04:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Bruce

I agree that it&#039;s not an easy thing to do but I also agree with James&#039; last comment that this speaks more to interop.

I find it interesting that this came from the deputy CNO for communications. I just wouldn&#039;t read this as any major shift by the Navy toward open-source.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Bruce</p>
<p>I agree that it&#8217;s not an easy thing to do but I also agree with James&#8217; last comment that this speaks more to interop.</p>
<p>I find it interesting that this came from the deputy CNO for communications. I just wouldn&#8217;t read this as any major shift by the Navy toward open-source.</p>
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		<title>By: James Fee</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8683</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Fee]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 03:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8683</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Tim: That may be true but I can&#039;t see any scenario where ESRI is replaced by the Navy or Marine Corps.  What this does though is allow &lt;i&gt;ALL&lt;/i&gt; the applications and servers the Navy/Marine Corps uses to interop with each other.  That is more what this addresses here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim: That may be true but I can&#8217;t see any scenario where ESRI is replaced by the Navy or Marine Corps.  What this does though is allow <i>ALL</i> the applications and servers the Navy/Marine Corps uses to interop with each other.  That is more what this addresses here.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Maddle</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8682</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim Maddle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 02:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8682</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While it&#039;s true nothing will change overnight, reading the excepts above and the full article, I can&#039;t help but feel that the Admiral&#039;s statements indicate the Navy is looking to replace some of its current technologies with lower-cost or Open Source alternatives.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
The Navyâ€™s decision was informed by a combination of motivations, including the desire to provide the latest capabilities to warfighters and &lt;strong&gt;control the costs of its information technology operations&lt;/strong&gt; (emphasis mine), he added.

â€œWe canâ€™t accept the increasing costs of maintaining our present-day capabilities,â€ Edwards said.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

While it&#039;s true that ESRI&#039;s products can serve data in open formats such as WMS, moving to those formats opens the playing field to a much wider variety of products.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While it&#8217;s true nothing will change overnight, reading the excepts above and the full article, I can&#8217;t help but feel that the Admiral&#8217;s statements indicate the Navy is looking to replace some of its current technologies with lower-cost or Open Source alternatives.</p>
<blockquote><p>
The Navyâ€™s decision was informed by a combination of motivations, including the desire to provide the latest capabilities to warfighters and <strong>control the costs of its information technology operations</strong> (emphasis mine), he added.</p>
<p>â€œWe canâ€™t accept the increasing costs of maintaining our present-day capabilities,â€ Edwards said.
</p></blockquote>
<p>While it&#8217;s true that ESRI&#8217;s products can serve data in open formats such as WMS, moving to those formats opens the playing field to a much wider variety of products.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8681</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bruce]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Mar 2008 01:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.spatiallyadjusted.com/2008/03/07/us-navy-to-require-open-gis/#comment-8681</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill
&quot;take the time&quot; is the problem with ESRI.  They really make you go out of your way to do this.  They didn&#039;t enable WMS without a separate download until 9.0 (.1 ?) and when they updated ArcExplorer to 9.0 a few years ago they didn&#039;t include WMS support for almost 9 months.  I still feel ArcMap struggles with a WMS image as opposed to an ArcIMS image.  Making ArcIMS serve as a WMS is a royal pain.
Bruce]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill<br />
&#8220;take the time&#8221; is the problem with ESRI.  They really make you go out of your way to do this.  They didn&#8217;t enable WMS without a separate download until 9.0 (.1 ?) and when they updated ArcExplorer to 9.0 a few years ago they didn&#8217;t include WMS support for almost 9 months.  I still feel ArcMap struggles with a WMS image as opposed to an ArcIMS image.  Making ArcIMS serve as a WMS is a royal pain.<br />
Bruce</p>
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